Karen and Olivia Newton-John

It's well known that Olivia Newton-John was a friend of Karen's. I don't think they were super close compared to her other friends like Frenda Leffler and Karen 'Itchie' Ramone, but they were definitely friends. Randy Schmidt was able to interview Olivia for his 'Little Girl Blue' biography on Karen. But I was disappointed that Olivia didn't have anything very insightful to say. To me this is a reflection of a friendship but not a deep one between Olivia and Karen.

 I often wonder if that friendship though did more harm than good for Karen. I believe Olivia is just as warm and genuine as she comes across in interviews. I'm sure she cared for Karen. But the problem is that I think Olivia embodied much of what Karen wanted in her own life with regards to Olivia's  looks, 1980's success, branching into movie's and confidence.

Karen was a beautiful woman no doubt. However, she wasn't considered a bombshell, drop dead gorgeous woman like Olivia. Olivia was a few inches taller than Karen and had the build that Karen desperately wanted. Karen was a bit hippy and had broad shoulders. Even in her emaciated state, if Karen was fully covered, if you didn't look at her face, she deceptively looked healthy. Her body had a certain build so her hips were a certain way. There was no amount of dieting that would get rid of her bone structure. Whereas Olivia had that twig-like figure. Combine that figure with her blonde hair (long or short) and she was really a strikingly beautiful woman. From the average American vantage point, Olivia was more the hot sex symbol than Karen.

On top of that, Olivia got the role in Grease! Karen was performing numbers from Grease  in the Carpenters stage act years before Olivia was in the movie. Karen was very much familiar with the play and later movie. I can't help but think that Karen must have had twinges of jealously seeing Olivia in the skin tight black leather outfit, red lipstick, high heels, and coiffed hair. Karen would simply never have been able to look like that. Though she wanted to I'm sure.

Olivia in Grease!

Then Olivia's absolutely smash album 'Physical' came out shortly after Made In America (which was a comparative flop sales-wise). It was a completely different album than MIA. It was much more contemporary, had more of an edge. The title song spent 10 weeks at #1. Olivia had follow-up top-5 hits with 'Make a Move on Me' and 'Heart Attack' (the later ironically came out around the time of Karen's death in 1983). While Karen was in New York in therapy in 1982,  A&M released 'Beechwood' which barely cracked the top 100. Meanwhile, Olivia was enjoying tremendous success and touring the world.

I think Karen's voice was better than Olivia's, more distinctive. But as I've said before, Karen was also ambitious and competitive. There was likely apart of her that was envious of Olivia's looks and success. On the man front, Olivia seemed to have more confidence. She didn't land the kind of man Karen was looking for. Olivia's boyfriend Matt Latanzi was 10 years Olivia's junior and not anywhere near as successful as she. He was a dancer in Xanadu. So Karen probably wasn't envious of all aspects of her life. Olivia was  a year older than Karen and one of just a few friends near her age that wasn't married and with a child or expecting one. So this probably gave one common thread for her to bond with Olivia on. But I think that common attribute was overshadowed by envy for Olivia's looks and continued success.

Interestingly, Olivia's success also came to end later in 1984 after her last Top 5 hit 'Twist of Fate'. Success doesn't last forever for anyone. But the fact that Olivia was seeing this early 80's success and the Carpenters hadn't seen a Top 10 hit since 1975's 'Only Yesterday' must have been a tough pill for Karen to swallow. The early 80's saw a slew of adult contemporary acts scoring #1's like Air Supply and Christopher Cross. The Carpenters couldn't find the right song. 'Touch Me When We're Dancing' was gorgeous but not a bona fide Top 10.

At the end of the day, as nice as Olivia seems to be,  I just don't think the friendship was healthy for Karen. I think it created some jealousy for her. I don't believe this had any significant factor in Karen's demise but I think it was something that did cause frustration and added to the the anorexic behaviors that eventually killed her.

Herb Alpert and Karen

It is clear when watching interviews with Herb Alpert how devastated he is that Karen died. This is a wonderful interview of Herb done fairly recently in 2011. Watch around 5:10 into the video. Nearly 30 years after Karen's death, he still breaks down when talking about Karen.

I don't think he had romantic feelings for her ever but definitely loved her like a sister. Maybe he wonders if fame created too much pressure for Karen. I also wonder if he feels guilty about not encouraging her more with her solo album. He has said vaguely in other interviews about why it wasn't released "I don't recall why but I'm sure she wasn't too happy with it." Honestly, I don't think Herb liked it. Maybe he feels some guilt about that.

Also Herb was commenting on how great she looked shortly before she died. But from most accounts, especially Richard's on close-up she didn't look well at all.  It's almost like his relationship with her was too business. Yes, technically he was her boss. But I get the sense that he could have stepped up on the personal side. Even Jerry Moss (whom I never got the sense liked the Carpenters music) was key  in canceling the rest of their 1975 tour when seeing Karen's weight loss. It just seemed like Herb stayed away from that. He was their mentor and admired both Richard and Karen dearly. However, there was something on the personal side that when she was alive, I don't think he expressed to her ... not love in a romantic way but love, care and concern in a more personal way. I sometimes get the sense that he wished he could tell Karen how he felt about her or to try to help her.

Karen's selectivity regarding men: Reflecting on Mike Curb

Karen wanted to meet the perfect guy and unbelievably got exactly what she didn't want in Tom Burris (except for superficial good looks). She had a very clear, long list of qualities she wanted. Prior to Tom, there were many great men interested in Karen. Mike Curb I think was the most ideal. He clearly cared for her.

At the time Karen dated Mike, around 1973-74, Mike wasn't the huge success that he eventually became. I'm purely speculating, but I don't think his moderate success as part of the Mike Curb Congregation or as a producer, came anywhere near the mainstream success of the Carpenters. He was an exec at MGM, but some of that success hadn't quite emerged until after he and Karen broke up.

Mike gives the impression it was more about career obligations, that kept them apart. But I believe Karen was looking for a relationship and would have taken him more seriously if he had more success when she  was with him. I recall Mike talking about trying to get her to eat on a date at Knotts Berry Farm, his visit to her at Lenox Hill in 1982, and his overall sentiment when speaking about Karen. He clearly cared for her.

With Curb Records especially, Mike achieved huge success, likely eclipsing Karen's earnings had she lived. But in the early 70's, I think she viewed him as one of those nice guys, more keen on her than she with him. I think he was of those good men she realized she let slip by once she was older.

Karen also mentioned in an interview shortly after her marriage  that Tom was the first man whom she was instantly attracted to. Maybe she meant that to flatter Tom. It gave me the impression, that she wasn't taken with Mike when she was dating him.

I don't think Terry Ellis was right for her. He had the looks and success but not the down to earth qualities that she needed. So that was a good call even though Karen tried to reconcile with him later. Even with Tom, I feel that she wanted to almost will him into what she wanted him to be before they married. She saw his true colors, but instead of having the confidence to call off the wedding or end things sooner, she went back to the anorexia.

So much of Karen's life was wanting to be able to control circumstances. But such a big part of maturity is realizing that you simply can't control everything. She couldn't revisit the past. She couldn't get the exact man that she wanted. She couldn't make her mother express love the way she needed it. Unfortunately, she couldn't look at the side of her life that was working and figure out how to enjoy and appreciate what was in her control. As is said in the serenity prayer " God grand me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." I don't think Karen was a particularly religious or even a spiritual person. She was never really at peace with herself. I just wish she had a little more time. She would have found that serenity eventually.

But, oh how I wish she would have continued to date Mike and married him. Mike moved on and married not long after he dated Karen and is still married to the same person so I'm sure he's happy. But I think it was in Karen's power to make something happen with him at one point. I think Mike would have married her and he would have loved her and she him. He seems like a supportive, caring person. I wish we had a time machine and could go back to 1974.

Karen's ambition, impatience and need for control

One area that is seldom talked about with regards to Karen is her own ambition. We hear about her generosity, talent, problems, but seldom do we hear or talk about Karen's drive and expectations of life.

Karen was a very driven, ambitious woman. People who achieve the kind of success she did, have to be ambitious. As Karen had said herself in a 1974 interview, achieving success requires a lot of hard work. But I think Karen could be somewhat obsessive about it. There have been accounts of her constantly reading the music trade magazines and studying the Top 40 charts. She also talked about worrying about their product being good enough.

The relative failures of Kind of Hush, Passage, and MIA, I'm sure weighed heavily on her. There were interviews where she even seemed frustrated at not being able to figure out what the public wanted. Karen had influence on song choices to release as singles. There were some 'goofy' oddball songs on the radio in 1976, so out came 'Goofus', a  true bomb for a single choice. Then there was Beechwood, an attempt to follow on the Please Mr. Postman success. It seemed Karen and Richard were grasping for something to stick, resorting to trying to guess the public sentiment at times rather than go with what made the most logical sense. There were gems like "I Just Fall in Love Again" that were wasted opportunities.  I'm sure this lack of traction in the latter part of her career bugged Karen and there was nothing she could do about it.

There's also that somewhat disturbing comment from an interview where Karen recalls that if  they didn't have a hit record by the time she was 20, she'd have to kill herself. Of course, she didn't mean that. But her comment was indicative of ambitious young woman. Ambition is good and necessary to be successful. However, when she couldn't control the outcome anymore, I think it was very hard. There was that old anorexia 'friend' to fall back on.

Her need for control was also exemplified in Richard's relationships. There was Maria Galeazzi, Randy Bash, and Mary Rudolf (their adopted first cousin per wikipedia). Karen didn't like any of them. I mean she *really* didn't like them. My theory is that she didn't see them worthy of her brother. She wanted someone equally successful like Olivia Newton-John for Richard. Olivia didn't need her brother's wealth. I think Karen didn't like anyone she perceived as not achieving the level of their own success. Randy Bash said in the Ray Coleman book that her family had money and weren't gold diggers. But I think from Karen's vantage point, Randy hadn't earned the success. She didn't seem to like these women whom she may have perceived as latching on to her brother. It could have been her own frustration with her lack of love life that caused her to want to control Richard's.

But nevertheless, for all of Karen's generosity, she wanted things her way. All of these women were probably fine. Sure, if Richard was poor, they may not have liked him as much. But that is so common. There are plenty of women out there with men who can provide for them. That's a common societal value. Just like powerful men like pretty, young women. That's just the way the world works. It's one thing to not like your brother's choices, but Karen seemed a little obsessed with her brother's choice of mate. I don't think she would have viewed Mary as a loving, nurturing partner for her brother. (If Richard had still married Mary if Karen was alive, I think Karen would have eventually come around in time as she matured. Richard and Mary seem very happy together.)

My point is that Karen had a need to have things her way. She didn't always get that and I think that lack of control was a factor that steered her more to the anorexia. Even the solo album is an example. She wanted to do that album but she also wanted Richard's full support for it. Richard was always tepid but she got the 'blessing' whether or not it was heartfelt. I think even as she recorded it, she was bothered.  Her mother probably wasn't overly supportive either. So she likely had this conflict of wanting her independence but also wanting the approval. She just needed to stop trying to get everything to work out a certain way and simply except the things not in her control.

Ipecac

Of all the destructive behaviors of Karen, her use of Ipecac was the worst. This was probably the single most deadly item that she used. There's some debate whether she did in fact use it. Cherry Boone O'Neil confirmed it, and it showed up in the autopsy report.

It was rather unfortunate that the deadliness of ipecac was not publicly known in Karen's time. I don't think Karen would have gone near it if she knew it was literally eating her heart muscle. But the more disturbing part for me is how it actually feels to use ipecac.

I used it once to see what it was like even after knowing of the danger. This was in 1994 when it was still possible to easily obtain it from the drugstore.  For bingers, the binge you're in is always the last one. So I thought once wouldn't hurt.

I will tell you that it is the most godawful painful thing to take that stuff. The cramps are enormous. The taste is disgusting. It also doesn't just cause you to purge right away. You are just lying there in utter utter pain waiting for the work to be done.

I remember being curled up in pain on the bathroom floor and asking "Karen, you did this to yourself? Karen?"  I never went near ipecac again. Even if there were no long term effects, I would have never touched it again, because it was that horrible. The fact that dear Karen would endure this more than once is purely, and simply torture and breaks my heart.

Karen was never cured of anorexia

Karen had not recovered from anorexia when she came home from her therapy in 1982. She felt pressured to cure herself. You just don't recover after 3 months of being in a hospital. Her family was waiting for her, and she had to get back to them. This was a tragedy. Weight gain was considered by her family as a sign of being cured, which is anything but the truth, and gave Karen a false sense of accomplishment. It was never about putting weight on but getting to a point of acceptance and contentment with life. She still wasn't happy and hadn't resolved that critical issue. So she resorted to ipecac as another anorexic habit to exert control of her body once again. If her weight was above 100 pounds, she and her family would consider that as not being anorexic. Anorexia is so much more complex than a number on the scale.

Karen had years of recovery ahead of her had she not died. The idea of recording and touring was simply insane. Richard realized she wasn't well. But that was purely from a physical standpoint. Like his mother, I don't think he believed or really even understood what anorexia was all about. I'm sure Karen felt tremendous pressure to just get cured and get back to business. That simply wasn't fair to her.

In Defense of Agnes

Much has been said about Karen's mom, Agnes. She is widely depicted as a mom undemonstrative with regards to affection. The two most prominent examples are when Agnes couldn't say she loved Karen in the family therapy session with Steven Levenkron and second, when Agnes made Karen go through with the wedding to Tom Burris after learning of his deceit.

I agree these are two serious issues. The second issue emerged in Randy Schmidt's biography on Karen  (Little Girl Blue: The Life of Karen Carpenter). I can imagine Agnes saying this to Karen. But keep in mind, unless Karen had the phone on speakerphone or taped the conversation, it's unlikely that the quote of  Agnes (effectively saying that Karen made her bed and had to lay in it), is a word for word quote. I'm just saying to keep in mind that words can get miscommunicated- Agnes to Karen to Frenda to Randy. Some context could have been lost.

The first issue I am more likely to believe as Richard approved the scene in the Karen Carpenter Story movie that depicted the events. Richard thought it was fine. It was probably the single most damning part of the movie with regards to his mother and he left in the scene.

I do not have any doubts that Agnes loved her daughter. However, she was terrible in expressing herself. Agnes also could come across as domineering. In any interview with Karen's dad, Harold, Agnes seems to quickly to take control back of the conversation, not having the patience for his drawl.

Agnes Carpenter After Karen's Death on Good Morning America

But I do believe that Agnes loved Karen very much. When you think about it, Agnes was supportive of Karen. She got her the drums afterall! Sure Richard, may have encouraged it, but I get the sense that Karen had a good childhood and if she wanted to do something, her mother supported her.

We don't really know the details of Agnes' life. Remember she helped raise her niece and possibly delayed having Richard and Karen to later in life because of that responsibility. Taking in another child is a big deal and very generous.

At the end of the day, Agnes did a lot to help her family. She went to work to help earn money. She helped find the friend of the friend who got the demo tape to A&M. You could argue that she did that out of her own ambition. But I truly believe that she believed in the talent of both her kids.

I loved Randy's book. However, it seemed that all the attention in articles and the media around the book went straight to the couple of new tidbits that were revealed about Agnes. The media loved that. Those were only a couple of pages out of the entire book. Everyone seems to ignore the parts outside Tom Burris and Agnes.  This was my only qualm with the bio. Most of the story we had heard before except for these revelations. Both explain a lot of the demise of Karen near the end with regards to Tom Burris. However, there was the unfortunate side effect of over bashing on Agnes.  Who knows what she really said to Karen about getting married.

Agnes was a tough woman, no doubt. Many people have to deal with parents who are undemonstrative and authoritative  In fact, many deal with far, far worse. This is not why someone tortures themselves the way Karen did. Karen had her own issues that I will explore in other posts.

Karen's anorexia started in 1974 not 1975

One thing I've heard Richard say in interviews was that Karen's anorexia started in 1975. But I think the obsessive thoughts started  in 1974 even if the effects did not show yet. Clearly watching clips of Karen in 1974, she looks wonderful. Towards the end of 1974, she looks noticeable thinner (see the Perry Como Christmas special), but she doesn't look ill. But in 1975 especially near the end of the year, it is very clear she had gone too far with the 'dieting'.

Again, while she starts to look ill in 1975, the thoughts and the obsessions started in 1974. You just don't get that skinny overnight. 1974 was their peak. The Carpenters were everywhere. They had number one hits. So clearly, it wasn't the declining popularity (which eventually happened) that caused Karen to slip. She was also still very young, so I don't think the lack of a romance was a problem also.

I think it originally started with a simple desire to look thinner. She was a performer, removed from 'hiding' behind her beloved drums. In retrospect, we look at those videos from 1974 like the Budokon Japan concert or the one in Holland and can revel in how healthy she looked. But she wouldn't have been considered 'thin' by society's standards, maybe average, certainly not  fat.

I think she particularly was frustrated with her hips. As Richard has said, she had her bone structure going against her. She just had bone structure that made her hips wider than say someone  like Olivia Newton-John. Even at her thinnest, her body below her waist could be deceiving when she was wearing pants. If you saw her face it was a give away. Mostly Karen wore pants and jackets in her later years. You primary saw the anorexia effects in her face.

So my theory is that she originally got obsessed over something she had absolutely no control over, her hips. She then did take the diet too far. The 'dieting' soon became a learned behavior. She discovered this high that she got from feeling her bones and being thin. So when life got difficult, or she was not happy with something (Richard's girlfriends, declining sales, feeling like she was betraying Richard with the solo album, her mother's lack of attention, the marriage, etc.), she turned back to her addiction, anorexia. That was how she learned to deal with life. She didn't resort to alcohol, or other substances, she fell back on this 'good girl's' addiction. But just like all other addictions, the reason to turn to it are all the same.

Richard still doesn't get it

One thing that has always frustrated me with Richard is his lack of understanding around what Karen went through. In hearing him in interviews, he makes it sound like Karen's affliction with anorexia was completely random. Like she got hit by a dart from the sky.

It is so completely obvious why it was Karen who had this terrible disease. She was a girl who was ambitious and assertive but she also wanted everyone, especially her family,  to be happy. That created tremendous conflict for her in terms of getting what she wanted in life. One critical life lesson for all of us is to realize that you have to put yourself first sometimes. People will not always agree with you but as long as you're not harming someone, you have the right to live life by your rules and not apologize for it.

I think Karen was very guilted for pursuing the solo album. So even the one statement of independence that she made was shrouded in guilt for breaking the team. I'm sure there was also the pressure of anticipation of Richard liking her work.

Richard just doesn't seem to understand that Karen was a young woman who was ambitious and couldn't sit under a rock, but at the same time she wanted approval from her family. Her family was important to her. Her desire to have that approval is completely understandable. Someone stronger than Karen would have tried to get that approval but eventually have said 'the heck with them'. I think eventually she would have gotten to that point of true independence but it was still years away when she passed. She still had a lot of work ahead of her to get to recovery.

My Story

I'm an educated woman, with a good life and friends. I'm probably not the kind of person anyone would suspect as having a fascination with Karen Carpenter. Fascination is probably not the right word. But I do seem to be a little obsessed with Karen. I know I'm not the only one. I was alive in her heyday but not old enough to be aware of the Carpenters. I do have a vague early recollection of liking Top of the World in the 1970's, hearing it on the radio. When Karen died in 1983, I didn't know who she was, but I do remember the news story coming on TV in our family room and my parents expressing sadness.

I think I have a memory of hearing Superstar at the dentist's office in the mid-1980's. I say "I think" because I didn't know Karen's music. I just remember hearing this voice, this unique, deep soulful voice. Years later, when I knew of who Karen was, I had this thought, that I bet that soulful, one-of-a-kind voice I heard at the dentist was that of my newly discovered favorite singer, Karen Carpenter.

Through the mid to late 80's, I didn't think much if any about Karen. There was only the light recollection of that day in 1983 of a singer who died of starvation. Sometime in my senior year in high school in 1988, I remember looking up Karen in the school library. I'm not exactly sure how at that time I knew her name. I think I may have seen the People magazine cover from 1983. That dreadful picture of an emaciated Karen and had a morbid curiosity  Why would someone deliberately starve themselves? That thought wasn't a constant one by any means. It was merely a passing curiosity.

The moment when I really learned of Karen was when the 1989 Karen Carpenter Story, Movie of the Week aired. (Remember those old MoW days :) ?) I remembered that old curiosity and definitely wanted to know more about her life. Up until that point, there was nothing to feed the curiosity - no books, no internet, just a couple of People magazine articles available on microfilm at the library.

The thing that struck me more than anything were the songs and THE VOICE. What a beautiful voice! For all the botched story-line  script rewrites (that were later revealed in the Little Girl Blue biography by Randy Schmidt), the bad wigs, the voice was solid, perfect, unique. That was the singer in the dentist office! That was the singer who sang Top of the World, the song from my childhood.

I did what many people did after seeing the movie. I ran out to get a tape of Singles 1969-1974. (By that time, I was in college and didn't have a portable CD player.) Anyone who loves the Carpenters will understand how it felt hearing those songs. I don't need to elaborate on that.

The next purchase for me was the 4 CD set 'From the Top". This was a gem. We got to hear pre-famous songs, commercials, outtakes, all kinds of treasures. I still hadn't heard their studio albums (even though I later discovered the Tan album buried in my parents vinyl collection!) So this new set introduced me to many songs like Let Me Be the One, Where do I go From Here, Iced Tea, All of my Life... and my favorite song of all time Only Yesterday.

Needless to say, the remaining albums followed. I became one those fans who had multiple formats of every album, ran to the record store the day of the release of Karen's solo album, found other fans in the early days of the internet, ordered bootleg copies of Carpenters TV appearances for a small fortune on eBay, and on and on.

Like many other fans, I also battled eating disorders, including anorexia for a very short time for a year in college followed by mostly binge eating. I was also one of many who actually looked up to Karen for her skinniness and wanted to emulate that part of her. Luckily these obsessions are behind me. But I spent many, many, too many years wanting to be skinny and longing for that one brief time where I was able to achieve it but not hang on.

Truthfully, I'm mad at Karen for setting that example. I realize her death has helped with awareness. But if you're prone to an eating disorder, she is somewhat of an icon. This beautiful, ridiculously talented woman, couldn't see her own worth. So many of us deal with that. It's a vicious, horrible way to live, clouded in darkness and obsession. But when you're feeling that life is controlling you, being super thin, just seems like a way out. It's a way to get people to stop controlling you and be in charge. It's something to look forward to and strive for that seems doable. You awake in the morning and rush to the scale to see if any more pounds have dropped. It can be exhilarating. When you're not thin, but aspire to that and see thinness as your salvation (albeit in reality not salvation even if you get there as Karen proved) one can get very jealous of Karen and really anyone who is thin. I became obsessed with Karen.

I no longer want to be like her. I've learned how to get in control of my life which included the whole bit of dealing with authoritative parents. It is so much easier to live not wanting to be an anorexic. I can look back on it now and see it was all about asserting myself and losing the fear of what others think and just doing things my way. Control of one's life is so much more enjoyable than unhealthy obsessions.

But despite recovery from anorexic thoughts, I still find myself fascinated with Karen. Again, fascinated isn't the right word. There's an overwhelming sadness that I and many others feel, that Karen didn't make it. She couldn't see her value. Why? How? How could she not see how supremely awesome she was? Not because she made hit records. Not because she was pretty. But just because she was a really cool person.

I have been thinking about her a lot lately. Sometimes it comes and goes. But with her 30th anniversary passing, it brings up that realization of how much life she has missed. Also she suffered so much from 9 years prior to her death. Karen literally tortured herself to death. The marriage, failed solo album, undemonstrative mother, lost chances on love were heartbreaking enough. Even if she just didn't eat, it wouldn't be as bad. But all the horrible other things from the Dulcolax, Synthroid, Ipecac, it's horrible.  I think if Karen only starved, she would have had a shot at living, It was these insidious other devices that took her life.

There are very few high profile anorexia deaths. I do think Karen absolutely has saved lives. Even anorectics who may use her as a role model probably avoided ipecac for sure. Just as I believe Karen wanted to live, I believe most people suffering from eating disorders want to as well. They just are trying to figure out how to get out of the hell, unfortunately heading down the completely wrong path to find control.

I never knew of her when she was alive. Yet I miss her terribly. I wish she had made it. I wish she could see how much she is loved by the world.  Although had she lived, the outpouring wouldn't have been there. Had she lived, there would be no movie of the week, no curiosity, record sales at a much lower volume. She may have been recognized as a great singer, but the attention her death brought her would have always been greater than the attention to her had she lived.

Death always immortalizes a person. People become larger than life. Unfortunately, it's only once someone dies this way, that all of a sudden people come out and honor them. That's the way life works. I would rather have Karen be alive and to have never heard her as good as the Carpenters music is, that to come to know her after her death. I think listening to the Carpenters makes me more sad than happy because of what happened to Karen. But I can't stop listening.